Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Moderators: Spizzy, meauho, Hastur, Starrydance

Would YOU, yes you prefer

Pure FCFS
12
20%
FCFS Jury
24
40%
Lottery
0
No votes
Pure Jury
10
17%
Combination
10
17%
Other
4
7%
 
Total votes : 60

Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Starrydance » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:19 am

We've played this game before but Im curious:

Would YOU, yes you prefer:


1) Pure FCFS.

2) FCFS Jury. Basically, its FCFS but if you are "outside the rules", a problem person, or just you know "not quite ready" for Akon you get passed over.

3) Lottery. And no, not how some do it. You pay $5 a Lottery entry, one table per TAX ID. Lady Luck rules the day. You pay with your name and your TAX ID. We'd likely pull tables over a Stream so you can watch the insanity.

4) Pure Jury - This would almost have to have an entry fee. $25 is standard in Fantasy Art but thats more of a Dealers Room (Dragon Con) kind of thing. $10-$15 would be more realistic. This would end up having a longer "wait".

At this point, for Akon Id almost say we do 75% Pure Jury and 25% Lottery. Sure FCFS is just luck and has worked in the past, and FCFS Jury is pretty much fine, it didnt take us long to skip over the issue people.

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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Kiriska » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:36 am

Pure FCFS or FCFS jury is good with me, especially if the actual jurying part this year did not cause much of a delay.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Starrydance » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:38 am

Kiriska wrote:Pure FCFS or FCFS jury is good with me, especially if the actual jurying part this year did not cause much of a delay.


It really wasnt that bad, I mean, I think we could put more time in it and build the map at the same time but we really didnt want to delay any more than we had to.

Basically we know whos awesome for the alley and who brings in people, sells well, plays nicely with others, and bribes... er... you know. Is a professional!
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Aisha » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:46 am

Maybe I'm biased because it's my first year, but I like the FCFS jury. Just hopefully next year sign-ups will happen at the "usual" time of February.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Starrydance » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:49 am

Aisha wrote:Maybe I'm biased because it's my first year, but I like the FCFS jury. Just hopefully next year sign-ups will happen at the "usual" time of February.


We definitely, absolutely, truly want that too! This late rushing chicken-headless screaming thing is horrid all around!
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Spizzy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:55 am

I'd prefer the jury for these reasons:

No missing information -- people aren't going to mistype their tax id, forget their name, or neglect to get a website for us to look at their work

We can do it whenever we want, literally, we could start that stuff in November if we wanted to, and have it all ready to go whenever we get all our informational ducks in a row

database hiccups for time and early access will no longer be an issue

I'll finally get paid for 6 years of my time


Or lottery, for the same reasons, but won't have to spend two weeks working on it


I do not want FCFS anymore
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby khiro » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:32 am

When conventions end up going a lottery route I really like when it's a half FCFS/half lottery since that way some people feel like there are some things within their control, and if they end up not getting a table the have a chance to get a table through the lottery. I like the sounds of the way you guys would be setting up the lottery, since everyone would be able to watch it, and know that it's fair, plus with their being money down it would scare off people who aren't as serious about doing artist alley. Would the lottery entry fee go towards anything besides the chance to get a table though? I've read in talk for other conventions that people have expressed that it would be nice if the entry fee went towards partial payment for the table, so I don't know if that would be an option, but it's something that I've seen mentioned on other forums regarding a lottery with entry fee.

For pure jury I can see a lot of potential problems coming up based off of what I've heard about conventions that have a jury process. I think I just have too many questions about how it would work and what the criteria would be for the jury process for me to form an informed opinion on this process.

I really do think the FCFS Jury is a pretty good system, it's just there needed to be more time for hiccups to occur, so like what has already been said, as long as sign-ups go up earlier I would be seconding this system.

Anyway, that's my input on the systems! I'm sure whatever system A-kon goes with it will be a good direction!
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Spizzy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:57 am

For this year, this was kind of our mentality when doing the jury part:

-Was this person a really huge butthole to staff and/or other artists (like, more so than having arguments on the forum--we've had some pretty heated things happen here between users and they're still in, even the ones we don't like)

-Is this person a legal liability (there are some people who company reps are actually looking for to hand out ceases and desists, we don't want them)

- Does this person have a real, active tax-ID that also doesn't list A-kon or the Sheraton as their business (....)

- Does this person make their own stuff (ie, does not have their plushies manufactured in china or the US, vectoring copyrighted images onto glasses and whatnot etc)



If we were to throw the FCSC out of the picture, my additional train of thoughts would be

- Does this person have badass artwork ( we need cool work up in here)

- Is this person actually a known artist that can draw in a crowd (good for a-kon as a whole) / have we never seen this person before (fresh blood is good too)

- Does this person's work look -finished-. (I'm not wanting to toss out less skilled artists, I want to toss out lazy artists. Not many people pay 150+ for a just for fun table. There's a pretty visible difference between artists who are still honing their skills and one who just threw something together to make a buck.)

- Does their work have a stronger eastern or anime inspired style or subject matter (this is a japanese pop culture convention after all)

- Do we have variety in choosing this assortment of people

- Did I receive sufficient amounts of bribes (apparently we don't have strike-through for the BBcode on this forum..) (schmoozers would actually earn my spite and tank their likelihood of approval)
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby khiro » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:04 am

Thank you so much for the input for this year's and potentially what a future jury mentality would be! It's great to hear from people on the jury and what sort of things they're looking at and looking for. I think most other cons who do some sort of jury system are more secretive so to speak about their criteria/mentality, and have given some really weird/unbelievable reasons why artists have been rejected from their artist alley. Anyway with this input I think I will most definitely favor a jury process as well since it sounds fair and because A-kon as a whole tends to be very transparent/open with things that go on with their artist alley.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Shattered-Earth » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:58 am

I prefer FCFS Jury, which is what we had just without the delays :O

I like jury systems once FCFS gets too full, but I'm not terribly keen on paying to jury because my style isn't 100% anime and some of the fanart i draw is for western games and not anime, just seems too risky @_@ I understand lots of artists would prefer this though~

I definitely hate lottery the most, and especially a paid lottery haha. I mean It's cool if some % of remaining tables are lottery'd off, but having the entire alley be lottery would i think annoy artists (look at otakon..>_> lol) AND prevent you guys from being able to jury out rule breakers.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby meauho » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:05 am

Spizzy wrote:I'd prefer the jury for these reasons:

I'll finally get paid for 6 years of my time

:lol:
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby oanhderbread » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:18 am

I actually like the idea of pure jury, but for those who have never had a chance maybe like Starry mentioned, 75% jury 25% lottery or something?

Jury bc you want to draw people, not have too much of the same thing, etc. I think ultimately it would be a good thing and I'm not being bias. Whether I'd pass pure jury or not, Idk. I've sure as hell been juried out of a lot of shows I've applied to.

With that said, if there IS a jury process of course it would take up time. Earlier sign ups would be awesome if possible.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby cetriya » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:39 am

how about a jury and lotto with short time to pay?

since everyone is used to FCFS which require payment upfront and you sitting at your desk, if for lotto payment was due with in a week, it would make the process quicker.

also, if possible have the sign ups start earlier. You'd look through the first batch of 1.5x number of tables available to make there aren't any rule breakers or people with highly unfinished work.

Send the notice out, make an announcement to make sure people check their spam. A week goes by, which during that time you're going through another batch and you still have half of the previous batch for back up. You can send those out and wait another week.

And keep doing this until all tables are paid for. You keep a batch for the waiting list if anyone cancels and post that list. You pick from the order of the list if needed and there you go.

I wouldn't want a full juried system because of the time it takes and every year I'm surprised by what people will pay for. So its hard to gauge who's stuff would be 'cool' with the attendees.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby meauho » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:30 am

Starrydance wrote:1) Pure FCFS.


Fast, but causes LOTS of problems on site. As long as we have full authority to throw people out (read: have them drug out by the cops kicking and screaming), I prefer this. In every other instance, pure FCFS is a nightmare.


Starrydance wrote:2) FCFS Jury. Basically, its FCFS but if you are "outside the rules", a problem person, or just you know "not quite ready" for Akon you get passed over.


One of the best balances for staff between taking care of issues pre-con and taking a little time as possible. There were some wrenches thrown in this year, but hopefully they will be worked out for next year.

Starrydance wrote:3) Lottery. And no, not how some do it. You pay $5 a Lottery entry, one table per TAX ID. Lady Luck rules the day. You pay with your name and your TAX ID. We'd likely pull tables over a Stream so you can watch the insanity.


Like #3, staff can easily disqualify those who shouldn't be in the AA, and then lottery the rest. The issue is that it takes longer than our current quick-Jury FCFS system, and we would need A-Kon higher ups to actually allow us to start in November. I cannot fathom why we are repeated prevented from starting early, but we wouldn't be able to wait until even January or February if we were to do this. It also is one of the most complained about methods of filling an AA - third behind "only my friends get in" and "we allow anything at all in the AA"

Starrydance wrote:4) Pure Jury - This would almost have to have an entry fee. $25 is standard in Fantasy Art but thats more of a Dealers Room (Dragon Con) kind of thing. $10-$15 would be more realistic. This would end up having a longer "wait".


If you are a fan artist - you do NOT want this system. If we are going to take the time to jury entirely based on skill and artist popularity, then there is no reason to include anybody except original artists. Nobody would be able to use the reason that they sell fan art because "attendees will go to somebody who does and they won't get any sales". If there isn't any fan art, it really will be based on the artists popularity and not their ability to draw something that is popular. This method should only be utilized in conjunction with a 1 strike fan art ban. In exchange for taking a lot more staff time, the convention gets the benefit of eliminating the legal liability associated with having fan art in the AA.

I cannot speak for anybody else, but I would not work in an AA that conducted a full jury unless I got paid - and I would have to get paid even if I wasn't on the jury and the jury members did get paid. This is VERY time and people intensive, you wouldn't be able to make decisions based on a committee (one "No" and you're out, not majority rules).




Combo system: The only way I could support any system that combined with a pure jury would be if we incorporated a fan art ban. I won't devote that much time to an AA just to have the exact same issues on site that I have every other year.




I'm going to throw another one in the mix...

My preference to fill the AA would be:
PHASE 1
October 1st: take submissions for a Jury FCFS. Fill half the tables and finalize list by November 1, with a payment deadline for the last group of November 12th. In order to be included in any other Phase, you had to pass the Jury FCFS.

PHASE 2
November 15th: Lottery 25% of the tables (half of what is left). It can be done live and streaming for those interested in watching. Payment deadline of December 12th.

PHASE 3
January 5th: Auction of 15% of tables in a "sealed bid" style. All bids due by February 1 and notification is finalized by February 3rd. People can increase their bid at any time before the deadline. Highest bidders get tables FOR THEIR HIGHEST BID PRICE.
example: If there are 10 tables, and of the top 10 bids nine people bid $1,000 each while one only bid $50, then the AA would collect $9,050.
Because you pay your actual bid price, the tables are sold for what people think they are worth - even if everybody ends up paying different prices.
All monies would be due by February 15th.

REMAINING TABLES
The remaining 10% are allocated based on favoritism of staff. This would primarily be "good of the con" if an artist didn't get in who we thought should, but it could be for any reason we decided.
*NOTE: Staff favoritism means AA staff, not general A-Kon staff. There is a process that they have for that.
We could fill our tables at any time we felt like it, and (for me at least) if somebody actually asked to get in this way I would automatically say no.
This group is for people we hunt down and ask, not the other way around.

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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Spizzy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:23 am

Shattered-Earth wrote: but having the entire alley be lottery would i think annoy artists (look at otakon..>_> lol) AND prevent you guys from being able to jury out rule breakers.



oh we can always jury out rule breakers. always. We'd just pull extra numbers to account for having to vote people off the island. I don't think a stream would work for this because free streams have a maximum viewer list unless you pay for a channel, and steaming it kind of falls under my 'give them an inch and they'll keep asking for more" mentality. We show them the numbers being pulled and then they'll ask to know their number or see other people's numbers so they know we're not conveniently switching people around.


I did like this fcfs jury system because it didn't take that long to get the jury part done and we didn't have to think too hard about why to throw someone out if we had to. I mean, at this point it's not even really jurying so much as throwing out people who aren't following rules or we don't want in the alley prior to the con instead of at the con. I think mostly we need to find a solution to people not being able to accurately give us their information because they're busy being spazzes in order to fill out the form as quickly as possible.
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