Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Moderators: Spizzy, meauho, Hastur, Starrydance

Would YOU, yes you prefer

Pure FCFS
12
20%
FCFS Jury
24
40%
Lottery
0
No votes
Pure Jury
10
17%
Combination
10
17%
Other
4
7%
 
Total votes : 60

Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby tsarren » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:34 pm

My preference is option #2, FCFS Jury. You all made it work and it will only get easier to do as time goes by. I really like the fact that the perler bead sprite copiers, official-logo-users, and drama llamas will not be able to get in.

Any kind of auctioning of any number of tables (post-jury, I assume), I'm in favor of. I think this would get some of your heavy people-magnets into the AA - the artists who have high sales and are willing to bid up a table are also contributing to the overall con experience of a lot of attendees through said high sales. I would hope that any auction would be held after the FCFS tables have been filled. I would so sleep better at night knowing I had the auction as a backup in case my net connection goes down during FCFS.

I'm fine with any kind of advance fee for getting juried or what-not.

Please, not a lottery. At the very least, a small percentage lottery. I know there are a bunch of us here who regularly get asked, "are you going to be at XYZ con?" or "when's your next con?" We are, in a sense, the regulars, and a lottery would knock most of us out of A-Kon, to the disappointment of some (given, unknown) number of attendees. Remember, with 1000+ people trying for ~100 tables, any given artist has only a 10% chance of making it in. That's one year out of a decade, assuming the randomizer doesn't screw you. Lame.

I qualify for most AA's but have been moving to dealer's rooms in some cons primarily because I just want to pay for my space a year in advance and quit worrying about it. Other cons are easier to get in to (they open up tables sales to returning artists first), but they don't have a secure AA section, and I have too much stuff and still no bionic spine to schlep everything twice daily for 3 days straight (not helped by the fact that I typically don't stay in host hotels).
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby tsarren » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:38 pm

Spizzy wrote:it may discourage discussion but I guess if there's anything people will let us know, it's in what way they want to get a table. we need an 'other (explain)' option


Well, it didn't stop me from leaving my post up which I typed while the poll was being implemented. ;)

Please have a text field next to 'other'?

Also, combination of what? (or put another text field there?)
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Spizzy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:49 pm

tsarren wrote:
Spizzy wrote:it may discourage discussion but I guess if there's anything people will let us know, it's in what way they want to get a table. we need an 'other (explain)' option


Well, it didn't stop me from leaving my post up which I typed while the poll was being implemented. ;)

Please have a text field next to 'other'?

Also, combination of what? (or put another text field there?)



we can't have text fields on these polls, you'll have to make a post for these to specify what you think (which I see you already did, nevermind. Thought we were still on page 2 lol). Combination would be if you want to see the alley have two different modes of entry (such as 25% of the tables being juried and 75% being FCFS etc)
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Starrydance » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:34 pm

Thanks for adding Other, Spizzy.

I dont foresee us EVER going full Lottery, one, its way too much work and two, .... yeah.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby lilindar » Wed May 01, 2013 12:18 am

tsarren wrote:I qualify for most AA's but have been moving to dealer's rooms in some cons primarily because I just want to pay for my space a year in advance and quit worrying about it.


This, pretty much.

If money can save me from dealing with anything fcfs, I usually pay that money, even if it eats in drastically to the profits. The certainty of making SOME profit is better than dealing with the probability of not making any profit at all.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby KrisCynical » Sat May 04, 2013 4:25 am

Spizzy wrote:

If we were to throw the FCSC out of the picture, my additional train of thoughts would be

[snip]

- Does their work have a stronger eastern or anime inspired style or subject matter (this is a japanese pop culture convention after all)


Why should the style/subject matter be important? I'm not being combative, I just don't get why that should be a factor in judging.

In my own experience, non-anime style artwork does just fine at anime conventions. My work is of anime, but it's in my heavily western-influenced illustration style that makes the subject matter look more realistic. I do that because I honestly absolutely suck at drawing anime style but as it turns out, my customers tell me one of the reasons they like my work is because it isn't anime style and thus, to them, it brings something new to the material. The same goes for the other artists in the alley who do more Marvel and DC-style work as well as the fantasy artists who work realistically. They wouldn't try to get in to anime convention AA's if their work didn't sell, so there's obviously a market for it even though it's technically a Japanese pop culture convention.

My verbose point is that personally I don't see why an artist's style and subject matter should be a factor when they're judged. The other factors you listed, though? Absolutely. :)
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby KrisCynical » Sat May 04, 2013 4:56 am

lilindar wrote:Mostly, I'd like to see the jury section be a "pro row" or "small press." Spaces could be sold at 300$ - 500$ but receive priority locations in the AA. Considering the big kerfuffle over fanart that all cons are having with their AAs right now, this section should focus on original art. Any sort of original art, clothing, games, books, whatever. A limit on fanart in this section might be best, but a total ban would probably not work if the rest of the AA is still selling fanart willy nilly.


I would fall under this category because I'm a children's illustrator for a living. All I can say is holy cow, five hundred dollars and a limit on what kind of art can be sold? Under this concept professionals would effectively be paying over 2x as much for the same amount of space and to have their product type limited while the rest of the alley doesn't. Why should professionals be penalized just for being professionals? That's what those parameters sound like to me.

lilindar wrote:I'd also like to see the jury process administered at least in part by professional artists. Other cons have done without a professional panel of artists so it can be done, but Dragon Con does do really nicely with their pro artists. These artists could be compensated with a free table at least, maybe more than that, A-kon does have a nice guest section.


I agree that having a couple professional artists in the jury would be a good idea but at least at the Sheraton's AA layout all the guests got the tables in the dead zone at the very back of the room, so that wouldn't be very appealing to potential volunteers.

lilindar wrote:And then once you've sorted out your pro row / small press, you've got your regular AA spaces, sold in the same way they're going this year.

In this way, you could assure that you've got a mix of the best artists along side the up and comers.


But... the professionals/"best artists" already are along side the up and comers, just without having prices jacked through the roof and being collared with special limitations. The jury can balance the mix without it. :?
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Spizzy » Sat May 04, 2013 9:04 am

KrisCynical wrote:
Spizzy wrote:

If we were to throw the FCSC out of the picture, my additional train of thoughts would be

[snip]

- Does their work have a stronger eastern or anime inspired style or subject matter (this is a japanese pop culture convention after all)


Why should the style/subject matter be important? I'm not being combative, I just don't get why that should be a factor in judging.

In my own experience, non-anime style artwork does just fine at anime conventions. My work is of anime, but it's in my heavily western-influenced illustration style that makes the subject matter look more realistic. I do that because I honestly absolutely suck at drawing anime style but as it turns out, my customers tell me one of the reasons they like my work is because it isn't anime style and thus, to them, it brings something new to the material. The same goes for the other artists in the alley who do more Marvel and DC-style work as well as the fantasy artists who work realistically. They wouldn't try to get in to anime convention AA's if their work didn't sell, so there's obviously a market for it even though it's technically a Japanese pop culture convention.

My verbose point is that personally I don't see why an artist's style and subject matter should be a factor when they're judged. The other factors you listed, though? Absolutely. :)



It's mostly the subject matter more so than style--I love seeing non-anime style amongst the crowd. Mostly it's "if we're at an anime con, why is there so much homestuck" mentality. I mean, I love that there is a mix of people but with the way I see panels and artist alleys changing, it's starting to become "general pop culture event" rather than "japanese/anime/asian pop culture event." (I guess the same thing happens at Comic-con these days so a moot point in the end) While at mizuumi I saw more paneling for american and british properties than i did anime manga or gaming and that's just kinda...weird to me I guess. I thought I was at a Japanese culture event not an everything event. The idea is just to stay more true to the core focus of the convention; I guess it could be countered with 'a-kon has a broad crowd and needs to broaden horizons where given' which makes perfect sense on a business side. I think in the end as long as someone is doing good work or obviously working to achieve bettering themselves, that's all that would really matter. A-kon already has such a large amount of anime artists to choose from it'd benefit the con to have more styles and subjects, so while it's a personal note for me, I don't think it's a factor that would actually come into play (I mean hell, I do more western style stuff too). Mostly I'm just personally tired of seeing people making really unimaginative scrunchies out of patterned fabric that have nothing to do with anything and lining up to get tables (if someone is going to throw the lotlta label on something just cuz it has frills, they need to put as much effort and research into it as ash hayven does with her bows or something, ya know?).

So in conclusion: it probably wouldn't even come up since it's just a personal thing from personal opinions ;D

It looks like people are favoring how we did things this year so that's kind of good to see that the process itself was a hit! (also love how lottery has zero votes. It is truly the hated the one)
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby lilindar » Sat May 04, 2013 8:47 pm

KrisCynical wrote:
lilindar wrote:Mostly, I'd like to see the jury section be a "pro row" or "small press." Spaces could be sold at 300$ - 500$ but receive priority locations in the AA. Considering the big kerfuffle over fanart that all cons are having with their AAs right now, this section should focus on original art. Any sort of original art, clothing, games, books, whatever. A limit on fanart in this section might be best, but a total ban would probably not work if the rest of the AA is still selling fanart willy nilly.


I would fall under this category because I'm a children's illustrator for a living. All I can say is holy cow, five hundred dollars and a limit on what kind of art can be sold? Under this concept professionals would effectively be paying over 2x as much for the same amount of space and to have their product type limited while the rest of the alley doesn't. Why should professionals be penalized just for being professionals? That's what those parameters sound like to me.


I think you're not seeing some of the benefits of a small press or pro row area. I'd like to list some. c:
1. I don't consider removing a percentage of fanart to be a punishment! The point of a small press or pro row is to promote original art. If a person is interested in sitting in this location, presumably they're interested in selling their original art.
2. You don't have to sign up in first come / first serve mode, though that could be a back up if one fails to make it through jury. I really don't care for fcfs, I'd rather avoid it as much as possible and have my work be the deciding factor, not my typing.
3. You would get a more visible location than the traditional AA spots.

For these factors, I would absolutely pay 500$ to A-kon for a spot.

KrisCynical wrote:
lilindar wrote:I'd also like to see the jury process administered at least in part by professional artists. Other cons have done without a professional panel of artists so it can be done, but Dragon Con does do really nicely with their pro artists. These artists could be compensated with a free table at least, maybe more than that, A-kon does have a nice guest section.


I agree that having a couple professional artists in the jury would be a good idea but at least at the Sheraton's AA layout all the guests got the tables in the dead zone at the very back of the room, so that wouldn't be very appealing to potential volunteers.


And this is why I'd pay 500$ for a priority, original art supporting location. ^^ I did still sell work decently sitting in that guest section at the back of the room, and I'm totally grateful for that guaranteed table in exchange for doing panels. BUT. I'd rather pay more for a better location and then not be required to do panels. (I did like doing the panels, too, but having to vacate my table in the middle of Saturday is just never ideal, you know???)


KrisCynical wrote:
lilindar wrote:And then once you've sorted out your pro row / small press, you've got your regular AA spaces, sold in the same way they're going this year.

In this way, you could assure that you've got a mix of the best artists along side the up and comers.


But... the professionals/"best artists" already are along side the up and comers, just without having prices jacked through the roof and being collared with special limitations. The jury can balance the mix without it. :?


I think MORE professional artists would come to A-kon if the sign ups were made easier for them.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Starrydance » Sun May 05, 2013 8:14 am

Its actually something weve considered/wanted to do to have a "professional" row.

Not that that word isnt gonna piss someone off, dontcha know, but weve not found a way to implement it fairly. Perhaps thats what would be juried? I dunno.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Spizzy » Sun May 05, 2013 9:18 am

Starrydance wrote:Its actually something weve considered/wanted to do to have a "professional" row.

Not that that word isnt gonna piss someone off, dontcha know, but weve not found a way to implement it fairly. Perhaps thats what would be juried? I dunno.


I think if we had a pro-row it would HAVE to be juried. How many people who didn't get a regular table but are still willing to pay the steeper price tag would still jump on it just as an alternative. We'd really have to judge based on work if we had a professional section
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Starrydance » Sun May 05, 2013 10:55 am

Spizzy wrote:
Starrydance wrote:Its actually something weve considered/wanted to do to have a "professional" row.

Not that that word isnt gonna piss someone off, dontcha know, but weve not found a way to implement it fairly. Perhaps thats what would be juried? I dunno.


I think if we had a pro-row it would HAVE to be juried. How many people who didn't get a regular table but are still willing to pay the steeper price tag would still jump on it just as an alternative. We'd really have to judge based on work if we had a professional section



Work + Display + etc, not just work itself.
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby RavenMoon » Sun May 05, 2013 11:07 am

Spizzy wrote:
I think if we had a pro-row it would HAVE to be juried. How many people who didn't get a regular table but are still willing to pay the steeper price tag would still jump on it just as an alternative. We'd really have to judge based on work if we had a professional section


Pro-row tables are usually sold before standard AA tables. It would probably make a mess for the selection team (among others) if it were viewed as a last ditch effort at a table for increased prices (like ticket scalping?).
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby Spizzy » Sun May 05, 2013 11:08 am

RavenMoon wrote:
Spizzy wrote:
I think if we had a pro-row it would HAVE to be juried. How many people who didn't get a regular table but are still willing to pay the steeper price tag would still jump on it just as an alternative. We'd really have to judge based on work if we had a professional section


Pro-row tables are usually sold before standard AA tables. It would probably make a mess for the selection team (among others) if it were viewed as a last ditch effort at a table for increased prices (like ticket scalping?).


this was my other thought yea, do it first so the pros are set to go and don't have to worry about the mad dash
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Re: Thoughts on "Next Year" Signups.

Postby lilindar » Sun May 05, 2013 3:36 pm

Yes, do Pro Row sign ups first!

This is how most other shows do it as well and it seems to work okay for them.

That way, if some people aren't accepted to a pro row, probably their work is still good if they were even considering applying and paying a higher price?? They can still go apply to the regular artist alley!
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